Mr. BONNER. It is indefinite. It is possibly more than that. Not only that, but the question of the other property that is appraised, whether it should be on the basis of cost or fair value.

Senator DILL. Have they not presented a certain amount as to claim?

Mr. BONNER. They have submitted that 1918 appraisal which has been discussed here.

Senator DILL. It seems to me that is very important. That is the biggest item in here.

Mr. KING. May I explain that, Senator?

Senator DILL. Yes.

Mr. KING. There are three different statements in that report relating to the Niagara Falls Power Co. The first covers the valuation of the whole property. The second covers accounting since the license was issued on March 2, 1921. The third covers the matter of the amount claimed as the value of water rights, $1,500,000. If you will turn back a page or two, you will find a statement of their claim for fair value.

Senator DILL. In the report proper?

Mr. KING. Yes.

Senator DILL. But not in this summary?
Mr. KING. No.

Senator DILL. I see.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask the committee before we adjourn if you would like to have Mr. Merrill here to-morrow. Mr. Merrill is in the city, and he has been communicated with and is willing to appear to-morrow morning if the committee would like to hear him.

Senator HASTINGS. It seems to me that we ought to have some explanation of that report to the Appropriations Committee of the House. Mr. Merrill may be able to tell us about that.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection then we will call Mr. Merrill and ask him to be here at 10 o'clock to-morrow morning.

Senator DILL. Before Mr. Bonner is excused, I would like to know whether or not the commission has employees now sufficient to bring about action on these disputed accounts here? Here are quite a considerable number of them involving quite large sums of money. I am wondering how much longer they are going to be allowed to run without any decision being made.

Mr. BONNER. Well, my idea about that is just this, Senator, that we have been given a proportionately large increase in appropriations for work during the current year, and I think that we should try our best to get as much help as we can from the departments. With such help, in addition to the work that can be done by that larger force which the appropriation allows us, substantial progress should be apparent before next fall, and by that time if it appears that we are still not making the proper progress, then will be the proper time to ask Congress for additional help. Right now I would not want to state that we can not do the work with what help we can get and what we have already got.

Senator DILL. You stated the first day that you were here that you thought these cost accounts ought to be gotten at the time that the construction work went on; that they ought to be gotten then. Mr. BONNER. Yes.

Senator DILL. While they were fresh.

Mr. BONNER. Yes. There has been some weakness in the past methods.

Senator DILL. Yes. That appealed to me as a very important matter. And I am wondering whether or not the commission will be in a position to do that; not only to get those that are now being made, but those that have been made to be brought up to date, so that they will not be any older, but get them as fresh as we can.

Mr. BONNER. I may say that we have instructions prepared ready to go out to the field, that have been prepared for about a week, requesting the field officers to direct their efforts to that very point. Senator DILL. As I understand the law now, if a company is refused an application by the commission it has no right of appeal to any body? Mr. BONNER. Except to the commission.

Senator DILL. Well, I say, if the commission refuses to grant an application there is no right of appeal over the commission? Mr. BONNER. That is what I understand, sir.

Senator DILL. They can not go to court in any way on this subject. Mr. BONNER. That is the way I understand it. It has never been tested. There have been some threats at times to mandamus a license from the commission, but no agency has ever attempted it.

Senator DILL. And on the same principle, of course, if the commission granted a permit there would be no agency that could override that?

Mr. BONNER. I think not, unless it was found that there was some fraud or some misrepresentation of public interest.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Tyler, the engineer of the commission, is here. Do you care to hear him now, or would you like to hear him the first thing to-morrow morning?

Mr. CHARLES A. RUSSELL. Mr. Chairman, pardon me for interrupting. May I be heard? I would like to answer these charges about these debts of mine. I think it would be fair to me to permit me to make a statement, and I would like to do so at this time. The CHAIRMAN. How long will you take?

Mr. RUSSELL. It will take about five minutes.
The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES A. RUSSELL, SOLICITOR, FEDERAL POWER COMMISSION, WASHINGTON, D. C.-Resumed

Mr. RUSSELL. The facts in the matter, Mr. Chairman, in regard to my personal affairs, are well known to Mr. Bonner, and there is a letter in the files explaining the situation. Whether he has carried that here or not I do not know.

Upon leaving Montana, after a year or more of illness, and after the financial breakdown in Montana, I left there owing about $9,000. I had on my books in the partnership matter between $40,000 and $50,000 of money due me that it was impossible at that time to realize upon.

Upon coming to Washington I only received a salary of $3,800 a year, and I received less than $5,000 a year up to a year ago, and up to yesterday I had paid $4,450 on this indebtedness out of my salary, besides taking care of my family. My wife has gone without the necessities of life, actually, and my family have suffered by reason

of the fact of my endeavor to pay these debts, and I am paying them now just as fast as the Lord will permit me to do it.

In the very inception one of these letters came from a man whom I deny had a right to a claim, early in October. Mr. Bonner called it to my attention. I explained the situation to him, and he said, "Why, there is nothing to that." There wasn't any complaint of Mr. Bonner's. I took the matter up with this man, and the matter was finally adjusted, or is in process of adjustment.

Later on Mr. Bonner consulted me often about his own personal affairs, and we were very friendly. There was nothing of the kind ever urged at all until after the Montana hearing, when my ex-partner in Montana wrote me a letter that certain people out there were making inquiries about my affairs. He said it was the first time that he had ever heard of it up to the time I left there.

Prior to August, 1928, one of these clients, or a number of them, rather, owed me a matter of $18,000. I never expected to get a dollar out of them. But under a decision of the circuit court of appeals at San Francisco these people became possessed of certain properties in Montana. I immediately arranged for an attachment on the money for the purpose of securing my debt, and that matter is now pending in the courts of Montana.

At the time of the Montana hearing Mr. Pope from Montana appeared here in the Montana hearing. He is the attorney representing these people that owe me this money. At that time Mr. Pope told me that the case was set, if I remember correctly, for November 12. We both appreciated that I could not get back to Montana for the trial of the case at that time, and Mr. Pope then said to me that there was a settlement pending, which I did not know about at the time. He said that the matter was being taken over, and that the money would be paid to us, and that there was no necessity of trying the case, and we therefore agreed by telegram for a continuance of the case over the term. I then arranged and made assignment to my partner of all of my interest in this matter, made assignments to all of my creditors, and if Mr. Bonner was fair he would bring the letters in here that he had in his possession that I saw go through the files, to the effect that my personal affairs were being satisfactorily taken care of. Now, whether he has presented those letters or not I do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mind if I ask at this point

Mr. RUSSELL. Certainly not.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing). Whether or not Mr. Bonner's statement that you were contemptuous of your creditors is correct?

Mr. RUSSELL. No, sir; that is not correct, and I have never refused to pay a debt, and I am paying them just as fast as I can. Senator DILL. When do you expect these assignments to be paid? Mr. RUSSELL. The matter now has gone over the term, and we had to arrange for a continuance, as I say, anticipating the settlement that was to be made. That settlement did not go through. I have word from my ex-partner in Montana to the effect that the case will be tried some time in May.

Senator DILL. Is that big enough to take care of outstanding debts?

Mr. RUSSELL. About twice as much as I owe.

Senator DILL. What kind of debts were these?

Mr. RUSSELL. Well, the bulk of it was money that I had indorsed in notes to the bank and borrowed money from personal individuals. If you want them I can get from my office a complete list.

Senator DILL. For necessities of life, or for property you bought? Mr. RUSSELL. Some of it was. Some for notes that I indorsed, some securities for others that I had indorsed.

Senator DILL. What percentage of them have gone to judgment? Mr. RUSSELL. There was only a matter of, I imagine, $600 or $700 that they tried to make me some trouble with when I went with the Interstate Commerce Commission. The matter was fully explained at that time to the Interstate Commerce Commission, and if Mr. Bonner further wanted to be fair there are letters from the Interstate Commerce Commission that he recently obtained from the Secretary, that my affairs were being straightened out as fast as possible. Now not only that, Senator, I have arranged to borrow the money and pay every one of these debts. But due to the fact that I have this money coming I have not felt that I was called upon to do it. If it is impossible to realize on these assets that I have, I have arranged with friends of mine in Washington to borrow the money and pay it. So these debts need not conern anybody.

Senator DILL. Now he said you were not paying your debts here, I understand it.

Mr. RUSSELL. There has no charge been made, and there is no bill outstanding but what I have paid or can pay, Senator.

Senator DILL. Well, I may have misunderstood him, but that is what I understood him to say.

Mr. RUSSELL. No; these are old debts that arose out of a partnership that existed from 1918 up until 1925. Some of those are partnership debts.

Senator DILL. Well, then, there isn't anything new or secret that had to be discovered by some agent of the Department of Agriculture going out and digging up a lot of things?

Mr. RUSSELL. Not a bit. Every bit of it is explained in memorandum in the files of this commission. Every bit of it is explained before the Interstate Commerce Commission. There has been no attempt to cover up, there has been no attempt to evade, there has been no attempt to deny a dollar of it.

The CHAIRMAN. May I say at this point that I am not clear yet that Mr. Bonner said that you owed a lot of District bills that have not been paid.

Mr. RUSSELL. If there are I do not know anything about them. Mr. BONNER. I think that misapprehension grew out of my statement, Mr. Chairman, to the effect that there were several judgments in the District of Columbia courts that there had been no settlement made on.

Senator DILL. Those are Montana debts?

Mr. BONNER. Those are due to Montana parties.

Mr. RUSSELL. Certainly, they are out of these old debts, and I had to move out of my home and turn over my automobile and walk out. And I have paid $4,450 of that indebtedness up to the last pay day, and I am now paying between $200 and $230 a month out of my salary in an endeavor to pay these debts up. But I have felt during the last few months, due to the fact that this settlement was pending and there was a possibility of release there, that it was not incumbent

upon me to continue those payments, and I have arranged to borrow the money if the settlement does not to through. Now that is all there is to this indebtedness.

Now with regard to that retirement fund; I never heard of it from the day the money was paid to me until this morning. There has never been anything said to me about it, there has never been any demand ever made to me about it, and when I left the Interstate Commerce Commission I resigned and went out of the service, and filed an affidavit, and after several days-it must have been a week or more—I was in New York, and upon my return the check from the retirement fund was at my house, and I cashed it, and I never heard a word from it since.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not a member of the civil service now? Mr. RUSSELL. I have no protection under the civil service at all. The CHAIRMAN. And you do not claim any?

Mr. RUSSELL. And I do not claim any.

Senator DILL. Protection under the civil service is not worth anything anyhow if the head of the department wants to fire you. Mr. RUSSELL. Certainly, and this is as good an excuse as any.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions? If not we will hear Mr. Tyler.

TESTIMONY OF M. C. TYLER, LIEUTENANT COLONEL, CORPS OF ENGINEERS, UNITED STATES ARMY, CHIEF ENGINEER OF THE FEDERAL POWER COMMISSION, WASHINGTON, D. C.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman of the committee.) The CHAIRMAN. You may start. I do not know whether we can complete with you this morning. I understand that you have suggested that you might be of service to the committee in some of their recommendations.

Lieutenant Colonel TYLER. My name is M. C. Tyler, and I hold a commission as lieutenant colonel in the Corps of Engineers, United States Army. I am detailed by War Department orders as chief engineer of the Federal Power Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you on the Federal Power Commission pay roll?

Lieutenant Colonel TYLER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are on the War Department pay roll?
Lieutenant Colonel TYLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And how long have you been chief engineer for the Federal Power Commission?

Lieutenant Colonel TYLER. I reported for duty on September 1st. The CHAIRMAN. Last year?

Lieutenant Colonel TYLER. Last fall; a little less than six months. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have any connection with the Federal Power Commission work prior to that time?

Lieutenant Colonel TYLER. I made the first report that was made for the Federal Power Commission in 1921 on the Potomac River, at which time the Federal Power Commission held public hearings on the report. I afterwards did work in the field for the Federal Power Commission on the Tennessee River, on some of the projects down there.

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