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Mr. FULBRIGHT. I think they have slav Government. We are talking about nations dominated by international comto worry about all costs; otherwise they trade in consumer goods. There is no munism. The distinction is crucial. could not meet the competition. They question of any strategic materials Under the terms of the 1951 act, mostcannot sell to us at any higher price than whatsoever being involved. And quite favored-nation treatment was withthat offered by any other country. Any frankly, we should be cutting off our drawn from the Soviet Union and all country that produces any product has noses to spite our faces if we Americans Soviet-dominated countries. But it was to worry about costs.

refused to make such trade possible when not withdrawn from Yugoslavia which Mr. HARTKE. It is true that, so far without doubt our Western European had broken with the Soviet bloc in 1948, as Communist and Socialist governments allies will continue to engage in such

allies will continue to engage in such though retaining a Communist governare concerned, they can export items at trade.

ment. prices that have no relation to produc- But the paramount question here is Beginning in 1956, Poland likewise betion or labor costs. There is no definite the political and psychological one. It gan to manifest a degree of independway to make a determination in the Tar- is not just a matter of pushing Mr. Tito ence from the Soviet Union, and this iff Commission as to what the costs are. into the arms of Khrushchev if we erect developed to the point where, by 1960,

Mr. MANSFIELD. Mr. President, will prohibitively high tariff barriers against President Eisenhower reinstated mostthe Senator yield for an answer? Yugoslavia. On the contrary, this is an favored-nation treatment to Poland.

Mr. LAUSCHE. First, we must adjust issue which will serve to influence our The Trade Expansion Act of 1962 conour prices to the cost of production. whole. policy toward the unfortunate tained a provision directing the PresiCommunist countries do not have to do countries of Eastern Europe which have dent, “as soon as practicable,” to withso, and deliberately do not do so, because been sucked into the orbit of the Krem- draw most-favored-nation treatment their intent, first, is to dupe their own lin. The one peaceful and promising from "any country or area dominated or people; and, second, they are intense in means we have of opening a window to controlled by communism.” Note the their belief that the free nations will the West for the satellite states surely difference from the act of 1951, which perish, and subsequently they will be able is through trade. If our long-estab- withdrew most-favored-nation treatto do whatever they please.

lished aim of liberation of those coun- ment from only those countries domiI yield now to the Senator from Mon- tries from Soviet imperialism is to re- nated by the international Communist tana.

main more than an empty phrase, we movement. Mr. MANSFIELD. I would just as must preserve and expand any opportu- Compliance with the 1962 act in the soon have a vote.

nities we now have to create normal case of Yugoslavia would involve the Mr. AIKEN. Mr. President, will the commercial ties with Eastern Europe. abrogation of a treaty dating back to Senator yield?

That, Mr. President, is the basic rea- 1881. This is a process which, by the Mr. LAUSCHE. I yield to the Senator son why this amendment is vitally im- terms of the treaty itself, requires 1 from Vermont.

portant to our foreign policy. It is the year. Mr. AIKEN. My understanding is that basic reason why I strongly oppose the In the case of Poland, compliance 20 percent of the grain produced by Po- Lausche amendment. I hope it will be with the 1962 act would involve breaklish farmers is sold to the Government, soundly defeated.

ing an understanding on the basis of and the other 80 percent is sold on the

which a $40 million claims settlement MOST-FAVORED-NATION TREATMENT TO POLAND open market. Poland and Yugoslavia


was reached with Poland.
are two Communist countries that have
not taken the land entirely away

from is one of the most important substantive
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, this

Because of the treaty with Yugoslavia the people. I do not think the Polish provisions of the bill. It raises a funda- and because the Congress has been re

is one of the most important substantive and the claims settlement with Poland of the land of its farmers. Twenty-five mental issue of policy; yet the point considering its action of last year, the percent of the land in Yugoslavia is Gov- which is directly involved is a relatively President has felt justified in not initi

ating steps to withdraw most-favoredsmall one. ernment owned, but the people are not

nation treatment from those countries. required to sell to the Government.

It is important that Senators be clear It should be clear, however, that the Mr. LAUSCHE. Mr. President, I as to exactly what is—and is not- United States has the legal right to abroapologize to the Senator from Colorado involved.

gate the treaty with Yugoslavia, in [Mr. DOMINICK], inasmuch as he is one

In the first place, the language in the accordance with the treaty's terms. of the original sponsors of the amend- committee bill does not represent a new Further, the United States is not comment. I suggest that it be called the policy on the part of the United States. mitted to maintain most-favored-nation Dominick-Hartke-Lausche amendment.

On the contrary, it will make it possible treatment for Poland into the indefinite Mr. HUMPHREY. Mr. President, I for the United States to continue the future. It should be recognized, howrise to support fully and completely the policy it has been following. There is no ever, that if we do withdraw most-favaction taken by the Committee on For- new or special concession involved. Both ored-nation treatment from Poland, the eign Relations which the Lausche Poland and Yugoslavia now receive most. Poles will most probably stop payments amendment seeks to overturn. In ef- favored-nation treatment. The bill will on the claims settlement and refuse to fect, I am in favor of maintaining the simply enable the President to make it negotiate a still-pending settlement on existing situation, I am against an possible for them to continue to do so.

outstanding dollar bonds. abrupt and unreasonable change of In the second place, most-favored-na- All of this, however, the United States course. Such a change, though seem

tion treatment does not represent any could suryive. What is really important ingly modest on its face, would have especially favorable position, and in this about the provision of the committee bill enormously important implications for respect the term itself is somewhat mis- is that it enables the President to use the whole course of our foreign policy leading. As a matter of fact, prior to trade as an instrument of foreign policy with respect to Eastern Europe.

1951, U.S. law required the extension of to encourage the growth of national inWhat the Committee on Foreign Rela- most-favored-nation treatment in mat- dependence in Eastern Europe. tions is trying to do, Mr. President, is to ters of foreign trade to all nations and The realistic alternatives in Eastern continue treating Yugoslavia as a na. foreign areas.

Europe are between a monolithic struction which is neither a pariah nor ac

The Trade Agreements Extension Act ture of docile satellites firmly controlled tively hostile to the United States, but of 1951 directed the President, as soon as by the Soviet Union and a collection of rather as a country with which we would practicable, to withdraw most-favored- states which have communist governlike to maintain as normal commercial nation treatment from the Soviet Union ments but which also maintain a degree relationships as possible. We are not and from "any nation or foreign area of national independence. The latter is talking about foreign aid here. We are dominated or controlled by the foreign clearly to be preferred by the United not talking about giving unusual pref- government or foreign organization con- States. The powers which the commiterential treatment to a Communist trolling the world Communist move- tee bill gives to the President will help country. We are not talking about our ment."

to achieve it, though there is no guaranpersonal dislike for the Yugoslav form It is important to note that this did tee that they will be successful. of government. We are not expressing not apply to nations with Communist But it is plainly a wild delusion to any fondness for the head of the Yugo- governments per se, but only to those

governments per se, but only to those base our policy toward Eastern Europe on the unfounded hope that a series of On this vote, the Senator from South Ribicoft Smathers Walters

Robertson Stennis Yarborough liberal democracies can be brought into Carolina [Mr. JOHNSTON] is paired with


Talmadge being there in the foreseeable future. the Senator from Missouri (Mr. LONG). Saltonstall Thurmond The Eastern Europeans themselves will If present and voting, the Senator from

So the Lausche-Hartke-Dominick plainly be better off with some freedom South Carolina would vote "yea," and amendment to the committee amendthan with no freedom.

the Senator from Missouri would vote ment was rejected. The whole purpose of this section of “nay."

Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, I the committee bill is to contribute to On this vote, the Senator from Kansas that end, and I strongly urge the Senate

move that the Senate reconsider the [Mr. PEARSON) is paired with the Sen- vote by which the amendment was to uphold the committee's decision. ator from Florida (Mr. HOLLAND). If

rejected. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The present and voting, the Senator from question is on agreeing to the amend- Kansas would vote "yea,” and the Sen

Mr. SPARKMAN. I move to lay that

motion on the table. ment offered by the Senator from Ohio ator from Florida would vote “nay." [Mr. LAUSCHE] for himself and other

The motion to lay on the table was

On this vote, the Senator from OklaSenators, to the committee amendment, homa (Mr. EDMONDSON) is paired with

agreed to. in the nature of a substitute, as amend the Senator from Michigan [Mr. Mc

Mr. MORSE. Mr. President, I offer ed. The yeas and nays have been or- NAMARA). If present and voting, the my amendment identified as No. 306, and dered, and the clerk will call the roll.

Senator from Oklahoma would'vote ask that it be made the pending quesThe legislative clerk called the roll. "yea," and the Senator from Michigan the so-called NATO amendment. I ask

tion, for consideration on Tuesday. It is Mr. HUMPHREY. I announce that would yote anay.” the Senator from Nevada [Mr. BIBLE),

unanimous consent that the reading of

Mr. KUCHEL. I announce that the the Senator from Virginia [Mr. BYRD), Senator from Utah (Mr. BENNETT), the that the amendment be printed in the

the amendment be dispensed with and the Senator from West Virginia (Mr. Senator from Kentucky [Mr. COOPER), RECORD at this point. BYRD), the Senator from Mississippi [Mr. the Senator from Arizona (Mr. GOLDEASTLAND], the Senator from Oklahoma WATER], the Senator from Kansas (Mr.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without [Mr. EDMONDSON), the Senator from PEARSON), and the Senator from Mas- objection, it is so ordered. North Carolina [Mr. ERVIN), the Sen- sachusetts (Mr. SALTONSTALL] are neces

The amendment, ordered to be printed ator from Alaska (Mr. GRUENING), the sarily absent.

in the RECORD, is as follows: Senator from Arizona [Mr. HAYDEN), the

On this vote, the Senator from Utah On page 47, delete lines 15 to 21, inclusive, Senator from Florida (Mr. HOLLAND), the

and insert the following: Senator from South Carolina (Mr. JOHN- tor from Kentucky (Mr. COOPER). If [Mr. BENNETT) is paired with the Sena

"(i) No assistance shall be furnished under STON), the Senator from Missouri (Mr. present and voting, the Senator from tion, except to fulfill firm commitments made

this Act to any economically developed naLONG], the Senator from Louisiana Mr. Utah would vote “yea” and the Senator prior to July 1, 1963. The President is diLONG), the Senator from Minnesota from Kentucky would vote "nay."

rected to make no further commitments for [Mr. MCCARTHY), the Senator from

On this vote, the Senator from Arizona assistance to such economically developed Wyoming [Mr. McGEE], the Senator

[Mr. GOLDWATER) is paired with the Sen- nations and is directed to terminate such from Michigan (Mr. McNAMARA), the

commitments made prior to July 1, 1963, at Senator from Rhode Island (Mr.' Pas- ator from Massachusetts (Mr. SALTON

the earliest practicable time. The President TORE), the Senator from Connecticut STALL). If present and voting, the Sena

is further directed to report, not later than [Mr. RIBICOFF], the Senator from Vir- tor from Arizona would vote "yea” and July 1, 1965, to the Speaker of the House and ginia (Mr. ROBERTSON), the Senator from the Senator from Massachusetts would to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

on the steps which he has taken to comply Georgia [Mr. RUSSELL), the Senator vote "nay." from Florida (Mr. SMATHERS), the Sen- On this vote, the Senator from Kansas

with this provision.

“As used in this subsection, the term 'ecoator from Mississippi (Mr. STENNIS), the [Mr. PEARSON) is paired with the Sena

nomically developed nation' means any Senator from Georgia (Mr. TALMADGE), tor from Florida (Mr. HOLLAND). If nation listed as an exception to the definithe Senator from South Carolina (Mr. present and voting, the Senator from tion of 'economically less developed nation' THURMOND], the Senator from Tennessee Kansas would vote "yea" and the Sena- contained in United Nations General Assem[Mr. WALTERS], and the Senator from tor from Florida would vote "nay."

bly Resolution 1875 (s. IV) and, in addition, Texas [Mr. YARBOROUGH) are absent on The result was announced yeas 14,

the German Federal Republic and Switzerofficial business.

land." nays 55, as follows: I also announce that the Senator from

[No. 222 Leg.) California [Mr. ENGLE] is absent because


of illness.
I further announce that, if present and


Mr. MANSFIELD. Mr. President, if

Smith voting, the Senator from Arizona [Mr. Curtis Lausche


the joint leadership can have the attenHAYDEN), the Senator from Louisiana Dodd

Mechem Williams, Del. tion of the Senate, we remind Senators

Dominick Mundt [Mr. LONG], the Senator from Minnesota

that the Senate is going over until 12 [Mr. MCCARTHY], the Senator from Wyo


o'clock on Tuesday. The amendment of ming [Mr. McGEE), the Senator from Aiken


Monroney the Senator from Oregon is pending. It Allott

Hickenlooper Morse Rhode Island [Mr. PASTORE) the Sena

is anticipated that there will be votes Anderson Hill

Morton tor from Florida [Mr. SMATHERS), the Bartlett Humphrey


shortly after 12 o'clock on that day. It Senator from Virginia [Mr. ROBERTSON), Bayh


is our hope that all Senators will be back the Senator from Tennessee (Mr. WAL

Jackson Nelson

on Tuesday, and that the absenteeism Brewster Javits

Neuberger TERS], and the Senator from Texas (Mr. Burdick Jordan, N.C.


which has become chronic in this body, YARBOROUGH] would each vote "nay." Cannon Jordan, Idaho Prouty

will in some fashion come to an end. I On this vote, the Senator from Nevada Carlson Keating Proxmire

dislike bringing up these figures, but I Case

Kennedy Randolph [Mr. BIBLE) is paired with the Senator Church Kuchel


think we ought to have them in the from West Virginia [Mr. BYRD). If Clark

Magnuson Sparkman

RECORD. present and voting, the Senator from

Mansfield Symington

A week ago today, 23 Senators were

McClellan Williams, N.J.
Nevada would vote "yea," and the Sen-
Ellender McGovern Young, N. Dak.

absent. These figures are on the basis ator from West Virginia would vote

Young, Ohio

of votes.
Fulbright Metcalf

Last Tuesday, 20 Senators were abGore

Miller On this vote, the Senator from Missis

sent; on Wednesday, 11; on Thursday,

NOT VOTING-31 sippi (Mr. EASTLAND] is paired with the

22; at 4 o'clock this afternoon, 26; at 4:45 Bennett Engle

Long, Mo.
Senator from California (Mr. ENGLE).


this afternoon, 26; at 5:07, 27; at 6:41,

Long, La. If present and voting, the Senator from Byrd, Va. Goldwater McCarthy

31 Senators were absent. Mississippi would vote, "yea," and the Byrd, W. Va. Gruening McGee

We have work to do. We have a long

Senator from California would vote

Eastland Holland


way to go before action on the bill will “nay.” Edmondson Johnston Pearson

be completed. I hope all Senators will

be on hand where they are supposed to the first nine pages of the news confer- Now it is our hope that the political and be-in this Chamber.

ence held by the Secretary of State the military leadership that has now formed Mr. DIRKSEN. Mr. President, what is today. The RECORD will show that I said

a new government there in Vietnam will be the pending business before the Senate? that those were the only pages that were

able to rally the country, consolidate the

effort, get on with the job, so that that The PRESIDING OFFICER. (Mr. then available. Assistant Secretary of country can be independent and free and BREWSTER in the chair). The pending State Dutton told me the other pages secure. business before the Senate is amendment would be made available to me when As far as the United States is concerned, No. 306, offered by the senior Senator they were typewritten.

we do not have and have never had any from Oregon [Mr. MORSE).

In fairness to the Secretary of State, special U.S. interest in terms of military bases Mr. DIRKSEN. Mr. President, I move the entire transcript of his news con

or anything of that sort. Our primary conto table the amendment. The Senate ference should be placed in the RECORD.

cern with Vietnam is that it be secure and does not have to vote on the motion to- I ask unanimous consent that the rest of independent, as it is entitled to be, and we

are hopeful now that there will be a connight. the pages of the news conference be

solidation of effort and that the central probThe PRESIDING OFFICER. The printed in the RECORD, and that they be lem there will be dealt with with expedition, question is on agreeing to the motion of printed together with the first nine and we will do what we can to assist, and the Senator from Illinois to table the pages, so that there will be continuity we have every reason to believe that the amendment offered by the Senator from in the RECORD. That is only fair, in view present leadership will do everything they Oregon. of the fact that I expressed disagree

can on their own side. Mr. MANSFIELD. Mr. President, will ment with some of the observations of

Question. Mr. Secretary, could you comthe Senator from Illinois withhold that the Secretary of State, but expressed this week that the administration might pos

ment on the suggestion of the Communists motion?

also my high praise for the ability of the sibly find some benefit in attempting to deMr. DIRKSEN. I will withhold it Secretary of State.

velop a political settlement or a truce with temporarily, without losing my right to There being no objection, the text of the North Vietnamese? Is that conceivable? make the motion.

the entire news conference was ordered Answer. I don't see quite what is involved Mr. MANSFIELD. The Senator's to be printed in the RECORD, as follows: there. So far as we can tell from what has right is maintained. I was about to sug- SECRETARY RUSK'S NEWS CONFERENCE OF

been said in Hanoi, what they have in mind gest that the Senate take a recess until

NOVEMBER 8, 1963

is that the regime at Hanoi would remain Tuesday; and that what the Senator

exactly as it is, the Communist regime, a Secretary RUSK. I know you have many

member of the Communist bloc, and that wants to do, he can do next Tuesday. matters on your minds this morning, so I they would then press for far-reaching Mr. DIRKSEN. I will withhold my won't take your time with opening state

changes, something that they call neutralizamotion, except that I will ask for rec- ments. I am ready for your questions.

tion, in South Vietnam. ognition at that time to offer the motion

Question. Mr. Secretary, the secrecy around

Well, we have run into that before, where to table. the wheat negotiations with the Russians is

they say, "On our side of the line nothing Mr. MANSFIELD. There will be no Department, whose job has been to inform greater than usual. Your aids here in the

is to be changed, but on your side of the line further voting tonight. When the Sen- us, claim that they know nothing because

something must be changed." ate stands

Now, let's look at this neutralization aspect they are not briefed. Now, this has been

for a moment. Up until about 1958 or 1959 Mr. DIRKSEN. Mr. President, what going on for weeks, and we believe we have

there was no difficulty anywhere about the is the pending business? I will not lose a legitimate interest. Can you tell us how it

general attitude of South Vietnam. They my right. stands?

weren't committing aggression against anyMr. MANSFIELD. No, the Senator

Answer. Well, we are in a period in which body. They weren't a military base for any, would not lose his right to the floor. The the wheat problem is being discussed with body. They weren't an ally in any formal only thing I wish to say is that there of bargaining going on. Obviously it is not try trying to be independent.

sense with anyone. They were simply a counwill be no further voting tonight. If in our interest to disclose the details of a Senators wanted to speak, there would bargaining situation. I wouldn't mind tell

Now, the American military presence there be no action on the amendment.

at the present time was a direct consequence ing you gentlemen what the situation is if

of the efforts of the Vietcong at Hanoi, the Mr. DIRKSEN. Will I be recognized you would promise not to tell the Soviet

Communist world, to take over South Vieton Tuesday, the first thing, without dis- Union the process of this bargaining.

nam. If everyone else would leave South cussion, to offer the motion to table?

But, as Mr. Khrushchev indicated yester

Vietnam alone, there is no problem. But The PRESIDING OFFICER. The day, some progress has been made, but we

to negotiate on far-reaching changes in Chair recognizes the Senator from Illi- The President indicated in his last press in North Vietnam seems to be not in the don't know yet what the outcome will be.

South Vietnam without far-reaching changes nois. The pending business is the conference that these matters ought to be amendment by the Senator from Ore- left to the negotiators, and I would be con

cards. gon. The Chair is not in a position to tent to leave it there for the time being committed-in the original Geneva settle

The other side was fully committed-fully inform the Senator what will happen They are meeting this morning, and there

ment of 1954 to the arrangements which proon Tuesday next. may be other meetings, I don't know.

vided for South Vietnam as an independent Mr. DIRKSEN. Except that I will not

Question. Mr. Secretary, could you give us

entity, and we see no reason to modify those lose my right to ask for recognition to your appraisal of the situation now in Viet- in the direction of a larger influence of

nam, since we have recognized it, and what North Vietnam or Hanoi in South Vietnam. offer the motion to table?

do you see ahead in the future as to the imMr. MANSFIELD. Any Senator can pact on U.S. policy in southeast Asia?

Now, this is not there is no problem about be recognized at any time for that pur- Answer. Well, I think the great question

South Vietnam if others would leave it alone. pose. which has been in front of us all along has

The same thing is true of Laos. Let these Mr. DIRKSEN. I will not withdraw been how to get on with the main job of people work out their future in their own my motion to table if I am going to lose assuring that South Vietnam is secure and way without outside interference.

able to work out its own future under its my right to be recognized.

Question. Mr. Secretary?

Answer. Yes.

own leadership and without any interfer-
ence from the outside.

Question. May I ask a question on a differthe Senator make the motion ?

Now, we were very much concerned when ent subject? Mr. DIRKSEN. I make the motion. in 1959 the Vietcong, with public support

Answer. Yes. Mr. MANSFIELD. Will the Senator from Hanoi, moved to interfere in South Question. Could you give us your thoughts again withhold the motion?

Vietnam, and indeed threatened to take it on the views in the Senate to restrict aid Mr. DIRKSEN. I withhold it tempo- over, and there has been steady growth in to Yugolsavia, Egypt, and Indonesia? rarily.

assistance and help by the United States and Answer. Well, I must say that I am very The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the others to South Vietnam in that struggle. much concerned about the tendency in the Senator from Illinois yield the floor?

We were also concerned in May and June Congress to legislate foreign policy as it Mr. DIRKSEN. I yield the floor.

and July of this year when developments in might apply to specific situations or specific South Vietnam indicated that there was a countries. The legislative cycle moves a

growing gap between the Government and year at a time. The world moves very fast. SECRETARY RUSK'S NEWS the people of that country, and there was It is not possible for the Congress to anticiCONFERENCE

some danger that the solidarity of the coun- pate in advance what the circumstances are

try itself in meeting this threat would be going to be in any given situation, so I am Mr. MORSE. Mr. President, earlier undermined by differences within the coun- very much concerned about the tendency to this afternoon, I placed in the RECORD try.

try to build into law attitudes in the use of our aid program, for example, with regard to The point is not whether a particular tail- chances are that there are likely to be more particular countries.

gate is lowered. The point is freedom of such incidents in the future. Is there any These are responsibillties carried by the access to West Berlin. Chief Justice John alternative, in your judgment, to simply President of the United States. They are Marshall once said that “The power to tax waiting until these incidents occur; or is very heavy responsibilities. The President is the power to destroy." Well, in a rough there some initiative that might be taken is the one whom the country will hold re- analogy, the power asserted by the other from the Western side to actually, as the sponsible if things go wrong. So I am very side to insist upon, on its own initiative-to last protest note said, put an end once and much concerned about the loss of flexibility, insist upon particular procedures or regula- for all to these harassments? the loss of any ability to move to protect and tions, could be converted into a power to in- Answer. Well, the West has made over forward the interests of the United States terrupt access to West Berlin. That, we can't the years a series of suggestions about farwherever they might be engaged anywhere have, because our position in West Berlin is reaching and fundamental solutions of the in the world. So I would hope very much of vital interest to the United States and of German Berlin question. We have had disthat the Congress would withhold its hand the West, and we must insist upon free ac- cussions, in the last 212 years since I have and not try to legislate in detail about the cess to that city.

been in my present office, about Berlin. application of an aid program to a particu- So these incidents are serious, and I think It would be possible to work out better lar country.

Mr. Khrushchev's remarks the other day in- arrangements if the other side would, in a Question. Mr. Secretary, on the larger view dicated that he recognizes that they are spirit of genuine reciprocity, recognize the of the foreign aid situation, the Congress is serious. But we must insist, and we have vital interests of the West in these matters. in the process of tearing it to shreds; and insisted, that existing procedures be fully But those discussions have not been particuthis is only the authorization. The news is complied with.

larly fruitful thus far because there has not going to be a lot worse when you get to ap- Question. Mr. Secretary, your remarks on been adequate recognition of the Western propriations; this is quite clear.

neutralization in Vietnam may be subject vital interests in the situation. Now how do you respond to this? You are to misinterpretation. Just to sum it up Whether the situation will change, we cangetting a message, at least they say on the here: You reject neutralization as a solu- not say. But the West has repeatedly made Hill, which tells you, the administration, the tion to the problem in Vietnam?

proposals, far-reaching proposals, for a Congress is fed up with foreign aid, as it is Answer. Well, I don't know-my point is permanent settlement of the German and now being operated.

I don't know what Hanoi talks about when Berlin questions on the basis of the needs What do you propose to do about it? they talk about neutralization. South Viet- and the wishes of the German people them

Answer. Well, we are in daily, sometimes nam was not allied with anyone; it was not selves. There is no objective reason, there hourly, contact with the Congress about this a military base for anyone. It was subjected is no reason in logic why these questions matter. I must say that I don't understand to attack from the outside through penetra- cannot be settled in a way that meets the the tendency to cut back on our foreign tion, infiltration, arms supplies, subversive vital interests of both sides. But thus far aid program as deeply as is now being dis- activities, matters of that sort.

it has not been possible to do so. cussed in the Congress. The large and dan

There can be peace in southeast Asia if Question. Mr. Secretary, in Latin America, gerous questions are still in front of us, others would leave South Vietnam and Laos sir, will the United States back the Venewhether it is Berlin, or Cuba, or Laos, or alone, and let the peoples of those countries zuelan and Costa Rican proposal before the Vietnam, or whatever it may be. work out their own future.

OAS Foreign Ministers meeting in order to There is no detente in the sense that there My point is I don't know what they mean discuss the defense of democracy in the face is a general easing of relations between the by neutralization, except that I suspect that of a coup? free world and the Communist world. it means that they are trying to find some Answer. I have already indicated that as There have been some limited and specific formula by which they can bring South Viet- far as I am concerned, I would be glad to agreements, some of them have been im- nam within the Communist world.

meet with the inter-American Foreign Minportant, such as the nuclear test ban treaty.

Question. Mr. Secretary?

isters if this is the consensus of the Foreign There have been explorations of the possi- Answer. Yes.

Ministers themselves, to talk about further bilities of agreements on other subjects. Question. Since the military coup in South steps we can take in the hemisphere to

But this is no time to quit. There is too Vietnam, there has been a good deal of dis- strengthen the constitutional processes in much unfinished business ahead of us. The cussion about our general attitude toward the hemisphere. United States has almost a million men

the military coup. Could you tell us what But this is a matter of consultation in the outside of the continental limits of the we are telling our Latin American neighbors OAS and elsewhere, so that I don't think United States, ashore and afloat. We must on this point today?

that I have heard yet whether that consensupport those men. They are out to do a Answer. Well, I think it is difficult to make sus has been reached. But as far as we are job for the free world. And I think they are a general statement that would apply in concerned, we are prepared to engage in such entitled to have us support them by trying theoretical exactitude to 112 different coun- conversations, and I think it would be quite to get the job done without committing tries. I think that the developments in important. them to combat, if possible.

South Vietnam promise to move rapidly to- Question. Mr. Secretary, in connection with Now we spend gladly—we spend gladly ward constitutional government, and a sense Mr. Harriman's trip yesterday to South about $50 billion a year in our Defense on the part of the people that they have a America, could you discuss two phases? budget. I don't see why we can't spend 10 stake in their future.

One, his meeting today or tomorrow with percent of that, if necessary, to get the job Now it is true that in certain other areas

President Illia of Argentina, and if you done without war, if possible. So I am very when questions of recognition arise, we will hope, if you think that something can demuch concerned about the general attitude give a good deal of attention to the attitude

velop to conciliate the oil problem, the that somehow we can relax, we can cut back of the governments who are neighbors and problem of the oil contract; and, two, what on our foreign aid, we can become indifferent who are very much involved in the same your hopes are in connection with the Interto what is happening in other parts of the problem. In this hemisphere, for example,

American Economic and Social Council world. The world is not in that shape at we have very far-reaching commitments to

Ministerial meeting in São Paulo? the present time, and effort is still crucial support constitutional and democratic gov

Answer. Well, Governor Harriman will be to getting the great job done on behalf of ernments, and there is a hemispheric com

making calls in Buenos Aires and I believe freedom.

mitment to this problem. And the possibili- also in Brazil, in addition to his visit with Question. Mr. Secretary?

ties that military coups in this hemisphere the Inter-American ECOSOC. The principal Answer. Yes. could become could start-chain reactions

purpose of his journey is, of course, the Question. Could you give us your assessof such events are matters of great concern

ECOSOC meeting, where there will be an ment of how the latest Berlin difficulty has to the governments of this hemisphere.

opportunity to review broadly the progress

of the Alliance for Progress and measures affected Moscow-Washington relations in the So we are in very close consultation in the larger sense? hemisphere about how

which might be taken to strengthen it. these questions

I think that it might be said that we ought Answer. Well, I think that one would have should be handled here. Similarly, there

to anticipate that the Alliance for Progress to say that these three interruptions on the have been one or two occasions in Africa where our own attitude had to take into

program will encounter many difficulties and, autobahn in the last several weeks have

indeed, will be associated with tension in one raised some very serious questions. I can't account the attitudes of other African states

country or another. Quite apart from anypretend to know what is in the minds of the who had an immediate and direct interest in that situation.

thing that the United States might do in this people on the other side on this matter.

But I think it would be difficult to draw revolutionary changes, far-reaching changes,

respect, Latin America is in the process of But they surely do understand, and must understand, that access to West Berlin is

a broad conclusion that would be applicable in their economic and social structures. utterly fundamental from the point of view in detail to all of the 111 or 112 countries

Now, these changes would be going on in of the Western Powers, and from the point with whom we do business.

any event. We have felt for some time that of view of the United States.

Question. Mr. Secretary?

it was important for the United States to Now, in detail, sometimes these incidents Answer. Yes.

assist those countries in taking hold of those look rather futile, look rather artificial, as Question. You have expressed serious

necessary changes and moving them along thought it were some sort of elaborate concern about the interruptions on the au- through democratic process, and through minuet about procedures of one sort or tobahn. And it has been indicated, both constitutional processes, in ways that make another. But that is not really the issue. from Moscow and from here, that the sense.

Now, it isn't easy to bring about important no discussion of that and no change in Question. Then aren't you participating changes through democratic methods. And practice.

at all in the transmittal of letters of dismisthe result is going to be that there will be Question. Mr. Secretary, could you please sal for Mr. Otepka? Did somebody else make tensions inside of a number of countries as give us the benefit of your insight as to why the these changes occur, and undoubtedly there the Russians at this time chose to make an Answer. The procedures on that are eswill be some tensions between some of these issue over Western access rights to Berlin? tablished under long-standing regulations, countries and the United States because Answer. No, quite frankly, I can't. I and the letters have gone from other offices they will feel that we need to do more than would mislead you if I thought that I un- of the Department. Under existing pracwe can do and that perhaps we are too exi- derstood just what's in their minds on these tice, if Mr. Otepka uses the machinery that gent in asking that changes occur on their three incidents because it seems to cut is available to him, then in due course it side before we come in with substantial across and interrupt a good many other would come to me for complete review. amounts of aid.

things that they have been saying and ef- And therefore I think it's important for me So there is a certain amount of tension built forts that have been made in small as well to reserve my own position on the matter into these changes. But we have been en- as some of the larger problems to find new until I have it before me officially. couraged by the steady progress that has been points of agreement after the test ban treaty. Question. Mr. Secretary, many Congressmade in country after country. We think But when you try to cross the gap of men, and also, I believe, the report of the they are headed in the right direction. We language and philosophy and understanding Senate Foreign Relations Committee has think that those changes can occur by peace- that exists between East and West on these called for a drastic revision of the foreign ful means rather than by revolutionary matters, it's very hard to know what's in the aid program in the future. means, and that the United States ought to mind of the other side. I would just have The fiscal 1965 program is now being put play a very important part in assisting them to say I don't understand it.

together in the Department. Are new conin finding the external resources which those Question. Mr. Secretary?

cepts and fresh organizational structures bechanges will require.

Answer. Yes...

ing built into this program, and if so, in Question. Mr. Secretary, in South Vietnam, Question. Sir, would you tell us, please, response to these demands—and if so, could do you think that the new regime can pros- what are your views about any officials of you tell us something about them? ecute the war more effectively than Diem your Department who would go before a Answer. I think the suggestions of the did? If so, why?

congressional committee and deliberately Senate Foreign Relations Committee are Answer. I think, actually, the principal say, under oath, what is untrue and what being given the most serious and fullest

consideration. problem that developed with respect to the they know to be untrue?

We are studying those at previous regime was the alienation of ap

Answer. Well, I think the answer to that the present time. And our proposals for parently very large sections of the popula- is self-explanatory, that our policy is that next year will take those very much into tion. We believe that the present regime when people testify before congressional account. Exactly in what way remains to

be seen. has moved promptly to consolidate public committees they should tell the truth. effort, that they will be able to resolve some [Laughter.]

think the underlying point is that of the internal difficulties that grew up, and

Question. Mr. Secretary, I'd like to ask a the foreign aid effort is a postwar effort which that there will be a possibility that the peo- couple of questions about the wheat deal,

requires us to keep our backs in it year after ple of that country will move in greater

which I don't believe will compromise your year, if we are to get this job done. unity on behalf of the total effort.

bargaining position. First, why wasn't the I think we should not suppose that We are encouraged about the possibilities. shipping arrangement with American ships changes in detail or changes in administra

worked out prior to the President's granting tive arrangements will necessarily prove the But there is a good deal of unfinished busi

key that unlocks the necessary effort. ness and some real problems ahead. But an export license, determination to grant an the reception, the support of the people do you respond to the critics of the deal who

export license on October 9? Second, how I think we have got to have a general themselves will be vital in this type of guer

national understanding that it is in our

vital interest to go ahead with a substantial rilla warfare. The attitude of the peoples say that by selling wheat to the Russians becomes absolutely crucial. As I think it was at this time we are letting them off the hook

aid program for the next years ahead, and to at a time when they are economically Mao Tse-tung said “If guerrillas are operating pressed? And, third, do you see any ex

be ready to do that in the most effective way within a friendly population, every bush is

possible. And I think it's this broader need pansion of United States-Communist trade an ally.” Well, in the last period we feel

for the foreign aid program that we need in the future? that as far as the villages are concerned and

fully to understand.

Answer. Well, in the first place, the questhe countryside is concerned, they become

Question. Mr. Secretary, I think it's useful tion of substantial Soviet purchases of wheat more and more the allies of the effort to

just every few months to take a pulse on the eradicate the Vietcong aggression. And we

came with very little advance notice from the Allied nuclear navy. Over the past year, we believe this will get an impetus from recent

other side. And it did require looking into have ranged from tolerance; that is, if the events and they can go ahead now with

a good many elements that needed review, Europeans want it, we will listen to their

if such transactions were to go forward. more confidence.

ideas, to various forms of enthusiasm. In

But I would suppose that the reason for the light of the Italian difficulties at the Question. Mr. Secretary, you have twice referred to Hanoi's idea of neutralization in our interest to make it. This is not a the wheat arrangement is that it would be moment, the British preelection period, the

German changeover, how do you gage the in Vietnam. What is your understanding of gesture of philanthrophy. If there is a basis odds, our enthusiasm, and the future of the French point of view and their mention for an exchange of wheat for convertible cur- this whole project? of a truce?

rency or gold that would be in our interest Answer. Well, now that we know that a Answer. I think that was perhaps a com- to make, that is one thing. This is not number of our Allies are very much interment from a very long-range point of view. something that is done for any other

purpose ested in it, we are prepared to go ahead with It had very little to do with what happens than our own self-interest. But these are it, we'd like to go ahead with it. At exactly tomorrow or the next day, perhaps com- matters which have to be discussed in detail. what pace depends upon the circumstances menting on the basis of what was antici

There was no preliminary discussion with of the other governments more than upon pated at the time of the 1954 Geneva Ac- the Soviets before the question came up. us. cords. But we see no—we see no develop- These were matters that were taken up first But we think this is a good idea, both from ment specifically along that line from Paris, by them with some of the private traders, a military and from a political point of or any ideas about any particular moves that and the private traders then needed to know view, and we'd like to proceed with it. And ought to be taken at this time.

whether in fact licenses could be issued, and those discussions vill go forward. Question. Mr. Secretary, going back to Ber- what the circumstances might be. But I Question. Mr. Secretary? lin, some of the Russians here have been think I would not add anything to what I Answer. Yes. telling us that we were using salami tactics have just said on that.

Question. Is the United States making any against them, and specifically in connection Question. Mr. Secretary

progress with its Allies in working out uniwith the note that we sent them which they Answer. Yes.

form credit policies toward the Soviet? say has changed the procedures in Berlin.

Question. Senator DODD, on the floor of the Answer. No, that is a matter which will Do you think there is any justification to Senate, has said that he has proof that Mr. be discussed. These are matters that are that charge?

Otepka's phone was tapped in the Depart- regularly discussed in NATO, and the OECD. Answer. No. I don't understand that as- ment here. What is your policy on wire- Credit policies have been a matter of gensertion. We have been following the prac- tapping?

eral coordination, not only as far as the Sotices that we have been following for years Answer. Well, this question has come up viet bloc is concerned, but also with regard on the autobahn. We have not changed in a case which is now pending in the De- to the free world. And I would suppose those practices in either direction. Our con- partment of State. Since I myself will play these matters would be discussed further. voy conducted itself in exact accordance

a personal role in this case at a later stage, But I have nothing specific on that to say with established procedures and moved ahead on the basis of established procedures. I if there are hearings, and if the procedures

this morning. go through their normal track, it will be for Question. Mr. Secretary, it was reported don't know any element of change, as far me, the Secretary of State, to review this in that Soviet arms have been reaching Algeria as we are concerned, in our own practices. all its aspects at a later stage, I think it from Cuba, and from Egypt. Do you think And, of course, we can't accept changes would be peculiarly inappropriate for me that the Soviets are engaged here in a new called for by the other side. There has been to comment at this stage.

gambit, or do you think it's an initiative of

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