66 our action in New York was, Will you consent to our system by remaining here? If you want to go and live in the suffrage States, you have the absolute right to do so." Where you have the right to live in a State. you submit to the laws and jurisdiction; that is the consent of the governed. The CHAIRMAN. Your theory is, and it is only by virtue of our Constitution, that if a man tries to steal your dog in California, and you commence an action of replevin and get judgment determining that dog is yours, you can go to New Jersey to maintain the title to your dog by virtue of the Constitution of the United States, can you not? Mr. WHEELER. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. But a woman in California who has the right to vote goes to New Jersey, under the same Constitution, and she is denied her right of citizenship and her right to vote because she is a female; is not that right? Mr. WHEELER. Perfectly true, because the New Jersey people think it is much better. The CHAIRMAN. Then you give the man the title to his dog by virtue of the Constitution of the United States, but you deprive a citizen who is an intelligent woman, who knows how to vote and how to act, because she moves across the line and the people of this country have not provided that you shall not deprive her of that right of citizenship. [Applause.] Mr. WHEELER. She has that right. Mr. CLARK. Under the proposition stated by the chairman, a dog is property; an elective franchise is not property, is it? Mr. WHEELER. Certainly not; and we have chosen in this country not to base it on property. The English system of allowing a man to vote where he has property does not prevail. We do not base representation on property: we base it on other qualifications. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, many New England States do, do they not? Mr. WHEELER. I do not think in any of them. The CHAIRMAN. You look and see how many New England States there are where you have got to have property qualifications before you can vote. Mr. WHEELER. I think you are mistaken; it was formerly so, but now it is not so. The CHAIRMAN. Well, ves; it is so now. Mr. WHEELER. Still, they have a right to do it, if they think better. Each State must settle that for itself; if they find it expedient to do it I would not take it away from them. Mr. ELLIOTT. A large number of States in this country now have woman's suffrage. Mr. WHEELER. Yes. Mr. ELLIOTT. And under State laws they can vote for President of the United States, and they can vote for Members of Congress? Mr. WHEELER. Surely. Mr. ELLIOTT. What condition is going to be brought about in our political affairs after a while when a majority of these States have these rights and a minority of the States do not? Mr. WHEELER. I do not see any objection to that. Negroes vote in New York; they do not vote, practically, in South Carolina. There is no harm in that. Mr. ELLIOTT. Will it not come around to this point eventually. that the representation in those States which only cast half of their vote will be cut down in this body? Mr. WHEELER. I do not think so. The women are represented. Mr. CLARK. Would not that be infinitely preferable to taking from the States the absolute right to regulate suffrage? Mr. WHEELER. I think it would. Mr. CLARK. I want to say to you now, as one man from the South, that so far as I am concerned, as between the two, I would infinitely rather see the representation of my State cut down than for a certain class of voters to control. There is no question about that. The CHAIRMAN. You said that the negro votes in New York, but does not in South Carolina. That is not a fair statement of the facts, is it? He has the right to vote in New York and he has the right to vote in South Carolina, if he complies with the law, does he not? Mr. WHEELER. Well, let us be practical, Mr. Chairman; let us look at things as they really are. The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about the law. The law of the land protects him in both States, does it not? Mr. WHEELER. Does it? Have you not come around to acknowledging that it is in the interest of good government in the South that the black vote, shall I say, should be eliminated? The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wheeler, I do not want to discuss that question, but I want to get it on the record straight. Mr. WHEELER. I want to be The CHAIRMAN (continuing). That the negro in South Carolina and the negro in New York, with like qualifications, is granted the same right under the Constitution? Mr. WHEELER. Well, the laws have limited it. In South Carolina, as I understand it, he has to be able to read and explain the Constitution of the United States, and the election officers administer it in such a way that practically he does not vote. No such restrictions. exist in the State of New York. The CHAIRMAN. Still, you want to be frank with the committee. Mr. WHEELER. I want to be perfectly frank. The CHAIRMAN. I want you to be perfectly frank. You recognize the fact that the negro in South Carolina, under the Constitution, has the same rights as the negro in New York? Mr. WHEELER. Well, as far as the Constitution gives it; yes; of course. The CHAIRMAN. It is exactly both the same. Mr. WHEELER. The question is whether it is wise to make a dif ference. Mr. HILLIARD. And you favor that regulation on the part of the State? Mr. WHEELER. I do, indeed. In Massachusetts there is an educational qualification; I should favor it in New York. I would have voted for it if I had a chance; in our last constitutional convention it was proposed there. I believe in that thoroughly, but still, that is not the course of the question here. Mr. MAYS. But you favor forcing the seventeenth amendment upon the States who do not want to vote directly for United States Senators? Mr. WHEELER. It seems to me that was a question affecting the General Government solely; the election of Senators of the United States is a matter solely for the General Government. Mr. MAYS. That is a suffrage question? Mr. WHEELER. It is a suffrage question, but solely a national question. But this question goes further; it prohibits States regulating local suffrage. If this amendment had applied to local officers, I think there would have been much less objection to it. Mr. Mays. So far as the suffrage question is concerned, you would have been opposed to forcing the seventeenth amendment upon the States who do not wish it? Mr. WHEELER. No; I do not say that. I think a matter of that sort, electing a Senator of the United States, is a matter very suitable to be regulated by the United States. Mr. MAYS. The States regulated it, though? Mr. WHEELER. Yes. Yes; they do, but it is provided that they shall be elected by the people who are given that qualification by the States. Of course, that is a new amendment, as we point out in the brief; it recognizes the principle for which I am contending. The CHAIRMAN. Will you suspend? It is 12 o'clock. The committee will now recess until 3 o'clock this afternoon. (Thereupon, at 12 o'clock m. the committee took a recess until 3 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The committee reassembled at 3 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of recess. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wheeler is here. The committee will come to order. You may proceed, Mr. Wheeler. STATEMENT OF MR. EVERETT P. WHEELER, CHAIRMAN EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL LEAGUE, NEW YORK CITY-Resumed. Mr. WHEELER. When the committee took a recess Mr. BLANTON. I beg pardon. Just a moment. Mr. WHEELER. Certainly. Mr. BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the gentleman a question? The CHAIRMAN. Certainly. Mr. BLANTON. I was on the district bench eight years, and passing on any witness's testimony I usually wanted to know something about him first, about his interest in the case, his relationship to the parties in interest, and so on. I would like to ask you, Mr. Wheeler, if you come here solely because of the personal interest you have in this question or if, in addition to such interest, you are employed by any organization? Mr. WHEELER. No: I am not employed by any organization. Mr. WHEELER. I am chairman of the executive committee of the American Constitutional League. Mr. BLANTON. Have you ever received a fee from an organization opposed to woman suffrage for any services rendered? Mr. WHEELER. Never. Mr. BLANTON. Or for writing any brief? Mr. WHEELER. Never. Mr. BLANTON. Have you ever prepared a brief for money in behalf of the anti side of this question? Mr. WHEELER. No. Mr. BLANTON. You have received no remuneration for your services? Mr. WHEELER. Not the slightest, except the reward that comes from a sense of duty discharged. Mr. BLANTON. I just wanted to know your personal interest in the matter. Mr. WHEELER. You are quite welcome. I might add that I have been pretty active in municipal politics for 50 years, and have written of my experience in a book which is in the Congressional Library, called " Sixty Years of American Life," in which I have tried to show how our political evolution has proceeded in this country. I was taught that it was the duty of the citizen to take his part, you know, not because he expected office or any reward, but that we are all citizens in a great Republic, and we ought to try to do our part, according to our conscience, to promote its welfare. The CHAIRMAN. Not to interrupt you there, but before you proceed would you permit a couple of questions? Mr. WHEELER. Certainly. The CHAIRMAN. It will not interrupt you, I hope? Mr. WHEELER. Not in the least. The CHAIRMAN. What is your age? Mr. WHEELER. I am 77. The CHAIRMAN. Your business has been the practice of law? The CHAIRMAN. Both are to your credit. You practice law where? Mr. WHEELER. Well, my office has been in New York City, but our business is largely commercial, and I have been counsel in cases as far south as New Orleans and west to Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. Now, you never lived in Wyoming? Mr. WHEELER. No; but I have cousins there. My cousin, Forrest Richards The CHAIRMAN. My cousins are not responsible for my actions, and they do not know what I know, and I do not know what they know; I wish I did. But I want to know your knowledge. You have never lived in the State of Washington? Mr. WHEELER. No; but I have been there, and I have friends there, you know. I have tried to investigate, but I have not lived there as a resident. The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever lived in California? Mr. WHEELER. No; my home has always been in the State of New York. The CHAIRMAN. You never lived in Colorado? Mr. WHEELER. No; but I have a good many friends there. Mr. WHEELER. No. The CHAIRMAN. Nor in Arizona? Mr. WHEELER. No. The CHAIRMAN. Nor in Kansas? Mr. WHEELER. No. I have a good many friends there, I might say. The CHAIRMAN. But let us confine ourselves now to your own personal knowledge and observation. I take it for granted, then, that you do not know the workings of woman suffrage in California? Mr. WHEELER. Well, I have studied it pretty carefully, Mr. Chair man. The CHAIRMAN. Now, I want to be particular. You are a lawyer. I have gotten you fixed as a lawyer, so as to get an answer to the direct question. From personal observation you do not know the workings of woman suffrage in California? Mr. WHEELER. Well, I do to this extent: I have talked with people who live there, who are voters, and have got from them what they saw. The CHAIRMAN. I do not want that. I am asking from your personal observation on the ground where women vote and participate in governmental affairs in California, you have no personal knowledge, have you? Mr. WHEELER. No; I have not; as you limit the question, I have not. The CHAIRMAN. That is the only way to limit it. answer would apply to Arizona, Colorado, and Idaho? That same Mr. WHEELER. It would, certainly, limited in the same way. The CHAIRMAN. I want to put it in the same way as to Washington, Oregon, and Wyoming. Mr. WHEELER. Certainly. The CHAIRMAN. And the same question would elicit from you the same answer as to Kansas? Mr. WHEELER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Or any State where there is woman suffrage, exclusive of New York? Mr. WHEELER. Of course, I have gone to those States, many of them; I have not gone to all of them; and I have watched what was going on there through campaigns, and seeing the voters and public officials, and all that. The CHAIRMAN. At which particular campaign in either of these States where women voted were you present? Mr. WHEELER. I have been in Colorado and I have been in Wash ington. The CHAIRMAN. You have been there when they were voting? Mr. WHEELER. I do not mean to say I was there the day of the election at the polls. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I asked you. Mr. WHEELER. No; I have never been in any of those States on election day. The CHAIRMAN. Then from your personal observation you are frank in stating to the committee that from first-hand information |